Curse

freekedoutfish · May 01, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

The hard mode feature has given me an excuse to play back through prophercies and Im loving it.

But I noticed something which I hadnt considered previously.

Undead warlocks can summon Ghoals (without the use of bodies) and undead sorcerer's can summon unbound spirits which do quite high damage.

Warlocks are basically Necromancers and sorcerer's are similar to Ritualists in summoning spirits.

Because of that...

1) Why cant Necromancers summon Ghoals like warlocks?

2) Why cant Ritualists summon un-bound spirits which can move around and do actual effect damage like sorcerers?

The more important one being for ritualists, because Necros already have a wide selection of minions. I've just never understood why their spirits are all bound to the ground?

A ritualists dmg dealing is absolutely rubbish from my experience (maybe Im doing it wrong). Their main purpose is to control spirits, yet they have none that do decent dmg. But we know that spirits exist, which can be summoned by the bad-guys that do quite alot of damage.

So why not allow Ritualists to use them?

Its something Ritualist, in my opinion, are in serious need of. Ritualists have the stigmata of being healers, or protectors. But they can be alot more then that. I personally started one to see what damage they can do and I loved the idea of nuking using an armor of spirits.

I was very disapointed when I tried it. I've now spent the last 7 months playing a protection rit because its all I could find to do.

I dont think giving Ritualists unbound, high damage spirits like we see in Prophercies is a bad idea. Those are what I considered spirits anyway, long before the Rits were added.

Back to Necros...

Ghoals for necromancers doesnt seem impossible, since the system and the creatures are already there. I realise Necros already have a large selection of Minions, so its not that important. But would it really hurt to give them ghoals too? Necros to tend to be either degen or MM anyway.

I doubt Ghoals would be death related either, since they require no bodies. They could be curses or blood. Born from the blood of the earth (corny I know).

In terms of PvE I dont seem how any of that it unbalanced. It might be unbalanced for PvP, but im sure with enough time and enough nerfs, it would be ok.

Obviously limitations would all be place. A limit of numbers at one time, and energy requirements and so on.

But why cant necromancers and ritualists summon these creatures?

Etta · May 01, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

/signed

Sound good.

ZenRgy · May 01, 2007, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Balance issues.
Spirits as restless.
Minions are more or less the same thing you're suggesting.

madman24749 · May 01, 2007, 08:56 AM // 08:56

But ghoals would look cooler

Seriously I'd make it an elite
Summons a level 1-20 ghoal from the mists to fight for you, attacks cause daze for 1-3 seconds
I think it would be a good idea

/signed

Yichi · May 01, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman24749

But ghoals would look cooler

Seriously I'd make it an elite
Summons a level 1-20 ghoal from the mists to fight for you, attacks cause daze for 1-3 seconds
I think it would be a good idea

/signed

honestly from a caster standpoint, thats a HORRIBLE idea. its completely imbalanced

/notsigned for this idea

/possibly signed for the origional idea but doubtful as its a balance issue.

freekedoutfish · May 01, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZenRgy

Balance issues.
Spirits as restless.
Minions are more or less the same thing you're suggesting.

I agree it might cause balance issues in PvP. But with nerfs and time, it would be ok and in PvE I dont see an issue.

But isnt it about time Ritualists had a spirit that actually did decent dmg, and was a threat? At the minute Ritualists spirits arent that huge a threat. A quick Nuke can remove them all from the field, because their bound-down.

And how would giving necros another minion type give them more advantage that they already have? Most MMs dont carry more then 2 or 3 minion types at one time anyway. And if the requirement was high and you were limited in number, then we have control.

But what do you by spirits being restless?

freekedoutfish · May 01, 2007, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by madman24749

But ghoals would look cooler

Seriously I'd make it an elite
Summons a level 1-20 ghoal from the mists to fight for you, attacks cause daze for 1-3 seconds
I think it would be a good idea

/signed

I wasnt really thinking ghoals would be strong or high level. More a creature that you spam, fast and use over-whelming numbers with.

And they would die off fast, and demand high energy and recharge times.

Imagine them as a kind of nuking spell. You cast it, summon several at once, and then they die after a short time. Not really the kind of creatures you would keep alive, as an army.

More creatures you would summon if your being over-run, and need an army really fast and then maybe run away.

MithranArkanere · May 01, 2007, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Ghouls (not ghoals, that word does not exist) are NOT summoned.
They are hiding underground and pop out when you approach, like devourers or mandragors.

Ritualists summon bound spirits. Their spells to summon them are called 'binding rituals'.

So... would never happen.

mikeejimbo · May 01, 2007, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Ghouls (not ghoals, that word does not exist) are NOT summoned.
They are hiding underground and pop out when you approach, like devourers or mandragors.

Similarly, the spirits are also hiding. The mechanics and creatures are not in place, as these are just normal NPC mechanics.

That said, I think a mobile spirit wouldn't be a horribly bad thing, and I even had a thought: What if you bound the spirit to an undead ally?

legion_rat · May 01, 2007, 11:39 PM // 23:39

why not grasping ghouls? they arent any worse than shambling horros, they cause cripple instead of bleeding. Even if it used bodies this would be a nice addition to the necro arsenal.

as far as mobil spirits. Maybe they could be bound to a Urn and as long as the rit held it the spirit could move with. once he drops it they stay put or disappear.

~the rat~

MithranArkanere · May 02, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

But all minios are created from corpses, and all BOUND spirits are BOUND to the ground.

As long as they have balane energy and reactivation time, minios that dea lcrippling would be fine, as long as they are raised from corpses, and don't just appear from nowhere.

Shayne Hawke · May 02, 2007, 01:36 AM // 01:36

As far as Necros go, /signed. ANet already seemed to be doing something like this with the introduction of Jagged Horrors, and I'd like to see more things like that.

Ritualists, however, /notsigned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Official Factions Guidebook

"Ritualists channel otherworldly energies that summon allies from the void, and employ mystic binding rituals that bend those allies to the Ritualist's will. They hood their eyes to better commune with spirits that grant power and protection. The energy they channel drives Ritualist skills to enhance the deadliness of an ally's weapon and wreak havoc on an enemy's health.

The Ritualist can also use the remains of the dead to defend the living--not by reanimating corpses as a Necromancer does, but through the ritual use of urns and ashes. Where the Ranger lives as one with the spirit world, the Ritualist is its master. These bound, tortured souls will assist your party in combat, offer up life-sustaining aid, and attract the ire of aggressive enemies to take some heat off your back. In short, no group should be without the Ritualist's powers."

I'm pretty much saying that I don't want you to take the Ritualist class and make it more like a Necromancer. If you want that, re-roll a Rt/N.

From personal experience, Ritualists are a sore in the butt if you don't have the patience to use them effectively. My personal favorite for dealing damage is Attuned Was Songkai and Renewing Surge, plus whatever other goodies I can stick in. It might not do too much damage, but it seems pretty efficient, and it's fun to me. I don't have much patience with Spirits, but I know how and where to use them if I need to.

Curse You · May 02, 2007, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Frankly, I've seen Ritualist spirits being used to good effect even in HoH. Most of the time, people will ignore a spirit, especially when there are 16 other players trying to kill them. Any intelligent spirit spammer would make sure to put their spirits away from their party in high-end PvP, so insure they don't get killed by stray AoE attacks. So really, spirits aren't that ineffective as they are.

Now also, think about this, the spirits are supposed to be "bound and tortured souls." I don't know about you, but if I was tortured, and someone summoned me without binding me, I'd beat on the closest thing to me.

freekedoutfish · May 02, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curse You

Frankly, I've seen Ritualist spirits being used to good effect even in HoH. Most of the time, people will ignore a spirit, especially when there are 16 other players trying to kill them. Any intelligent spirit spammer would make sure to put their spirits away from their party in high-end PvP, so insure they don't get killed by stray AoE attacks. So really, spirits aren't that ineffective as they are.

Now also, think about this, the spirits are supposed to be "bound and tortured souls." I don't know about you, but if I was tortured, and someone summoned me without binding me, I'd beat on the closest thing to me.

I get the idea of existing ritualit spirits being pulled out of the mist, and needing to be bound to stay in your realm, and not attack your team and stuff.

But we know that unbound spirits/ghosts exists in the game, because their in prophercies. Whether their pop-ups or their summoned by sorcerers, they do exist.

Do they come from the mist, or do they come from some other realm?

Their is obviously two types of spirit in the game. The strangley type that Rits summon, and the more ghost-like ones which help the undead.

Why not give a ritualits a way to summon those undead spirists/ghosts and allow them to control them?

I'm not suggesting we give Rit's a huge selection of unbound spirits, like MMs do with minions. Just one type (maybe even an elite spell) which they can summon and maybe only use 1 or 2 at one time.

Then it can protect the Rit while it does, the other stuff. Like a gaurdian.

Bankai · May 02, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Because it's imba. The only thing that keeps minion masters in check currently in PvP is the need for bodies. If they didn't need bodies, they would be way too powerful. Just load 2 necros up with 'Animate ghoul' and a third with [skill]jagged bones[/skill].

It's similar for ritualists. The only thing that keeps ritualists in check is the max of 1 type of spirit. Anything that will give him a way to summon something multiple times will be imba. Does anyone remember when in the beta, the ashes that spawn a spirit of pain didn't check whether there was already a pain alive (note that I didn't play hoh then)? Groups were just running defensive spirits and 20 spirits of pain. And they slaughtered people.

This would be similar. Anything that can summon multiple things without a heavy cost or requirement, is broken by default.

Sophitia Leafblade · May 02, 2007, 10:13 AM // 10:13

the spirits are only held in place and in the mortal realm by the spirit chains aroudn them without the chains they would be mobile, howver they would also not be held in the mortal realm.

Dont get me wrong i like the idea but its not lore viable.

ghouls as minions would be cool also but i imagine they wouldn't need corpses to spawn thus making them completely overpowered compared to minions. Ofc u could limit it i guess and say u can only summon 1 or 2 maximum.

However since Ghouls are infact Demons and not Undead and Necros have Power over the Dead/Undead rather than demons, its once again not lore viable.

tyche7 · May 02, 2007, 03:50 PM // 15:50

/signed

I personally like the idea. Perhaps an elite rit skill for an unbound spirit that does high dmg for GW:EN?? :-D

mikeejimbo · May 02, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyche7

/signed

I personally like the idea. Perhaps an elite rit skill for an unbound spirit that does high dmg for GW:EN?? :-D

If it was PVE only, that could work.

Healers Wisper · May 02, 2007, 05:50 PM // 17:50

/signed

I like my Rit alot. I don't think that spirits are useless, they do however take alot of time to summon and in PvE often times battles are over before you can get 3 spirits up (at least in lower levels) I would be on board with an elite skill, like flesh golem, allowing the Rit to have 1 high level spirit. If you have binding problems, bind it to the rit and give it ranged attack and a decent life span. Ill walk with a spirit on my shoulder for a little extra kick. lol

legion_rat · May 03, 2007, 12:05 AM // 00:05

maybe it wouldnt be so bad if spawning power also improved casting time of spirits so you dont take so long to make one.

I do like the idea of more MM minions. Mostly because most of them look the same anyway.

~the rat~